After Amb. Hanford’s testimony: 

Rep. Smith: “…I would like to ask a few questions. One of our witnesses later on today, Father Firas, from Our Lady of Sorrows Church in Aboud, West Bank, makes a very, very strong appeal with regard to the security fence and the fact that, in his village of approximately 2,200 people, as he points out, there are about a 1,000 Christians, the rest are Muslim. 

He points out that the two groups do get along very well. As a matter of fact, they have a prayer service that is both Jewish, Christian and Muslim, that meets and yet, as a result of the security fence, there is severe dislocations and what he argues is very discriminatory outcomes as a result of this.

And my question is, you know, I know that the Israeli supreme court has intervened, at least has come down on the side of those who have argued, while, as President Bush has said, the fence should be temporary and it should be absolutely focused just on security. It obviously did not arise out of a vacuum. It was the suicide bombers that were the proximate cause for its erection.

But the concern that its path results in the takings of land, water, and other resources is not without merit, and I think raises very significant issues.

Father Firas points out the impact it has had on his parish, and it has not been good. It's been very, very severe. 

My question is, has there been any systematic effort made by your office, by the secretary of state and by the president and anyone else, including our U.S. ambassador to Israel, to raise the issue of the dispossessed Christian communities, the Palestinian Christian communities and others, and what were those interventions? What has been the response on the part of the government of Israel?  And I would just say, parenthetically, and I say this with a great deal of emphasis, I'm one of those who has fought for years against the rising tide of anti-Semitism…But my argument is that we need reciprocity. And so, I would ask you, what have we done, what have you done on this issue?”

Amb. Hanford: “…This issue is one of great concern to my office and to the administration, and we certainly raise this issue regularly… 

…President Abbas has taken some steps to eliminate religious incitement, although there have been incidents of government collusion to extort property from Christian landowners in the Bethlehem area. So that's a problem on the Palestinian side that we've had to deal with.

Now, when it comes to the separation barrier, we have been very concerned that this restricts the ability of Palestinians, Christians, Muslims, both to worship freely, and we are in close consultation with the government of Israel on the routing of the separation barrier, especially with regard to human rights issues, including religious freedom.

We've specifically discussed access of religious groups to sites in the east Jerusalem area through the Mount of Olives and certain routings of the barrier in the Bethlehem area. And my office has been there, we've seen the problems.

We've raised cases where a convent is going to be cut in two by the barrier and things of this sort, and this is something we are committed to being vigilant on and would certainly welcome and appreciate continued cooperation with your office and others as we seek to do this.

Rep. Smith: Could I ask you, has the Palestinian and the Israeli leadership been responsive to our efforts?

It seems to me that we all understand the whole issue of eminent domain when it comes to highways and bridges and other instances, and certainly, a security fence, again, when there is a security threat that is unprecedented against Israel. But the flip-side of that is that for the aggrieved party to have to mount a court case, which can be long, laborious and expensive, and then with a coin flip as to whether or not it results in a positive outcome, obviously, diplomacy could have a laudable effect on this process.

Have we had successes? Are they listening?

I mean, one of the reasons why this hearing, I think, is important, and why Chairman Hyde felt it so necessary and wanted to lead off the testimony, was to underscore Congressional concern. I believe it is bipartisan. And, you know, friends don't let friends commit human rights abuses anywhere in the world, and I think when it comes to Israel, there is no greater friend than the United States.

So when we speak, we speak out of concern for Israel, but also out of concern for those who are being now affected, in this case, Christians and others who are being -- as I said earlier, having, as you put, convents cut in half, land expropriated, without a serious concern about, at least as far as I can tell in some of these cases, security.

There's an arbitrariness about it that's concerning.

Amb. Hanford: Even supporters of the barrier, people that understand the security risks and have raised these other issues with Israel have sometimes -- we have sometimes been frustrated by our inability to understand the logic of why the barrier has to cut through properties, and these are the sorts of things that we raise.

We are urging the government to find ways to have the barrier and, yet, allow access to choose a route or to allow access.

As you know, there have been problems where, as Chairman Hyde mentioned, annual processions and religious activities are also greatly restricted by the construction of the barrier.

So Mr. Chairman, we're raising these with some successes, but sometimes we come away unable to understand the insistence on the route being maintained.

Rep. Smith: Has your office looked into Father Firas' specific case?

Amb. Hanford: I don't know the answer to that. I'll have to...

Rep. Smith: Could you and get back to us and let us know?

Amb. Hanford: Yes, I sure will.

Rep. Smith: I appreciate it.

Rep. Smith: “…Has the U.S. government raised at a high level with Israeli officials the continuing delays in implementing of the fundamental agreement with the Holy See, which was agreed to in 1994, regulating the status of the Catholic Church in the Holy Land?

Amb. Hanford: “We certainly have. We have regular discussions both with Vatican officials, representatives of the Catholic Church, and with representatives of the Israeli government to encourage this process along, by which Vatican is recognizing Israel and by which Israel is recognizing the Catholic Church's role with certain properties and their place in that country.

And this has been a tedious and slow process, which has, at times, been difficult to understand, but yes, we're very much involved in encouraging both parties.”

After Nina Shea’s Testimony:  

Rep. Smith: “…Let me ask you just a few questions. First, on the issue of Father Firas, you probably heard the exchange that I had before with Ambassador Hanford. And my first question is, generally, has the commission looked into the issues related to the security fence or wall and how they are impacting upon religious belief and also the impact its having on individuals, obviously, of religion or faith?

Father Firas points out the loss of water and olive trees remains a significant problem and points out -- and I think this is very telling -- that an olive tree produces $200 of profit per person per season. The Israeli government has offered to buy or compensate for each tree destroyed. And there have been some 4,000 trees destroyed already and they're offering a miserly $15 each. That leads to a destruction of a community, which is, obviously, what this hearing is all about.

But has the issue of the fence been looked at and its impact on -- do you plan to or have you so far?

Ms. Shea: “Mr. Chairman, the commission follows very closely events in the Middle East and deplores the violence and loss of life among both Israelis and Palestinians.

The U.S. government is working at the highest levels to create conditions for peace. So the problem is hardly being ignored. The commission has publicly deplored attacks on innocent civilians and holy sites and condemns the use of religious rhetoric to justify such attacks.

We will continue to monitor the situation in the region, and if we believe we can make a contribution to U.S. policy, we will not hesitate to speak out.”

Rep. Smith: “If you could take back to the commission at least a request I would make to look into the impact the fence is having. Again, I think the president summed it up. We fully understand, Father Firas does so, as well, the need for Israeli security. And I take a back seat to no one in underscoring my concern for that, as well… 
So it's an issue, but the other side of that coin is, obviously, other victims, new people being victimized as a result of a fence that may deviate from a security focus to something other than that. So I would ask you to take a look at it, if you would.”

Ms. Shea: Mr. Chairman, I will take your message back. I will also say that we are also concerned about the destruction of another Christian community. And that's one we have direct control over, and that's Iraq…”

After Fr. Firas Aridah’ testimony (and that of the other two speakers on the final panel):  

Rep. Smith: “...But, basically, I would like to ask all of you, what has been your response, Father Firas, with the U.S. government? Have you been satisfied with the U.S. efforts?...”

Fr. Aridah: “After the visit of Cardinal McCarrick and before, he told us, when he came to Aboud, "I went to the highest level in our government here in the States." He met President Bush and told him about Aboud. But we are waiting to see something real on there. We want something, to feel it. OK. Thank you.” 

Rep. McCollum: “I would like to just thank the witnesses for their testimony. I would like to ask, Father, you talked a little bit in your statement about the way in which the boundaries have affected the ability for interfaith worship. But I also know that there's some challenges with some of the schools, with students being able to get to and from school and return at home. 

And the Catholic schools are interfaith teaching schools, and the hospitals, I know in my district, a lot of them are sponsored by my mother's faith, which was Lutheran. They've experienced some difficulties in supplies and people being able to get back and forth. If you would, comment on that…”

Fr. Aridah: “In our school, we have many Muslims, about 72 Muslims, and we have catechisms for both. We have catechism for Christians and Muslims in the same school. And we have good relations with them, because of all the Muslims in the village or the villages around, they are coming to our school, because we have the best education in the area.

And sometimes, I have a problem with the kids, when they want to enter to Aboud, because the entrance sometimes is closed by a military jeep. Sometimes I have to go up there to the entrance to bring them to the school with my car. That's one of our problems.

With the barrier, they will close a little bit the road, main road, main street from three villages around. So they will not have the ability to come to our school. About the hospitals, to go to the hospital in Jerusalem or Hadassah, the Israeli hospitals, sometimes we can't because we don't have the permit.

And I want to tell you the story of the mother of a priest in Jisna (ph) Birzeit. It's about 15 kilometers from Aboud. She died on the checkpoint with heart attack because of waiting on the checkpoint. They don't care who is in the ambulance.

Sometimes we can't access from Aboud or in Aboud. I spent about three hours on my first day entering to Aboud, three hours on the checkpoint, without doing anything. ‘You don't have a permit to enter here.’ ‘I am a Jordanian and I am a parish priest. I have to enter to my parish.’ ‘No way. You can't enter. You don't have a permit to enter here.’

But I entered. Now, sometimes I don't have the permit to go out from Aboud. Once I went to the supermarket and I turned back just in five minutes. ‘You don't have the right to enter here.’ It's our life in Aboud.”